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vivid dadas
Standard Member
196 Posts
Columbus, OH
USA
Suzuki
V-Strom 650DL
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 Posted - 10/27/2009 : 7:27 PM
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I don't want to get busted for thread drift.
That wasn't what I meant at all. I quickly discovered that coast starting a motorcycle with a dead battery is not like coast starting a car with a dead battery.
In a car, you push in the clutch, get the car rolling, and "pop" the clutch. It usually starts.
On a cold motorcycle, at least in my experience, it won't coast in gear with the clutch in, it also has to be in neutral. My cold motorcycles, (my only experience is my 250 Ninja and my 650 V-Strom,) will not roll very well in gear with the clutch lever pulled in. You first have to get it rolling in neutral, then kick it in a gear, (probably not 1st,)then pop the clutch then it might start. This assumes you have the key in and turned on.
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scottrnelson
Advanced Member
4748 Posts
[Mentor]
Pleasanton, CA
USA
Ducati
ST2, 888, + XR650L
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:13 AM
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One of the big advantages of a dry clutch, as used in many of the larger Ducati motorcycles, is that there is no clutch drag while pushing the bike in gear. Which doesn't mean that I can push either of mine fast enough to bump start them, but there is no extra drag while pushing in gear.
My Honda XR650L does not have much clutch drag even when cold. But I can't really bump start that one when cold either unless I have a hill to roll down.
The last time I had a bike that wouldn't start that was not near my Battery Tender, I used jumper cables from a car battery and it started right up.
I've probably said this somewhere else, but the best way to find out how your bike best works for bump starting is to ride it, kill the engine, coast down to the desired speed, then let the clutch out and see if you can start it. Do it when you don't have any battery problems so that you can use the electric starter if you don't get it right. That at least helps you to learn which gear works best and how fast you need to be going to do it. Once you have that all sorted out, you can let the bike sit overnight, start it just long enough to get it rolling, then kill it and see if you can still start it when cold. |
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Stevebr242
 New Member
23 Posts
Davis, California
USA
Kawasaki
'99 ZX6E
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 11:22 AM
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| I tried bump starting my ZX6 a few weeks back. It wasn't starting due to solenoid going bad and was acting like a dead batt. We got it rolling pretty good despite the drag with the bike in 2nd and the clutch in, but when I popped it it just slowed the bike down like the back brake had been eased on. Same results in 1st. I will try it on a steep hill some time, but it seems that the type of clutch I have has a lot of slip when driven "backwards" at low speeds. |
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SkootchNC
Senior Member
326 Posts
[Mentor]
raleigh, north carolina
USA
Harley-Davidson
road glide
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 12:08 PM
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A friend of mine has a BMW RT. HIS bike has a minimun voltage required, if he doesn't have enough juice to start the bike, you can not jump/bump start it.
When all else fails..... read the owner's manual. IF a bike can be started in this manner, the manual will tell you how.
I have bump started a Nighthawk 250 during my BRC, and that was my preferred way of starting my old Triumph 650. I'd get the oil pumped up, and tickle the carbs, then I'd roll down my driveway, do a quick jog left and then drop her in gear.... by the time she'd "catch" I'd be 2 blocks away. |
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greywolf
Senior Member
476 Posts
[Mentor]
Evanston, IL
USA
Suzuki
DL650AK7
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 1:19 PM
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| How can there be a problem jump starting it? There should be no way to tell if a jumper battery is present. The external battery would bring the voltage level up. |
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Niebor
Advanced Member
2793 Posts
[Mentor]
Highlands Ranch, Colorado
USA
Harley-Davidson
03' Superglide
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 1:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by greywolf
How can there be a problem jump starting it? There should be no way to tell if a jumper battery is present. The external battery would bring the voltage level up.
Agreed. The exception that comes to mind is the battery with a shorted cell, which is fairly common. Barring that, if the jumper cables are of sufficient size to carry the starter, they should work fine. Assuming less than 12 feet in length, for most bikes this would be 8 gauge cable. Use a 4 gauge cable, and the bike shouldn't even care if it's battery is in place. |
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SkootchNC
Senior Member
326 Posts
[Mentor]
raleigh, north carolina
USA
Harley-Davidson
road glide
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 3:12 PM
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Maybe he had more issues than he let on.... but he put the battery on his charger, and that afternoon his bike was fine. Perhaps what he was thinking, was PUSH starting would not work.
I can only report what I was told....his bike, his manual, and being he is an electrical engineer, I never question his knowledge of thing that spark |
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greywolf
Senior Member
476 Posts
[Mentor]
Evanston, IL
USA
Suzuki
DL650AK7
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 4:23 PM
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| My brother is an electrical engineer. I wouldn't trust him to change a light bulb. He could design electronic circuits just fine but couldn't troubleshoot a vehicle electrical problem to save his life. Theory and practice can be far removed. |
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 5:59 PM
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Back in the "pre electric starting days", an age when bikes had 6 volt electrical systems or magnetos and kick starters, some had a control on the left handlebar that retarded the magneto or the distributor and some of the Brit bikes had a compression release (as well Amal carburetors and Lucas electrics) it would not be necessary to be having this discussion. If you rode you were going to need the ability to bump start your bike, usually sooner than later (and if you raced, you always bump started your bike). One has not lived (in the past) until a buddy with a Vincent Black Shadow with a battery long over due for replacement and a set of carbs long overdue for a rebuild needed "a bit of help" getting the bike started before we could head out to watch the races near Chicago at Santa Fe Speedway.
Now we live in the the "era of the electric starter" and the old mantra of "tickle, choke, crank" has no meaning to today's riders. The electric starter "has put more people on motorcycles and more riders, who had no business riding, into hospitals and morgues than anything since some idiot decided that duct tape was a good way to patch a hole in a submarine on the cheap. I find it amusing that some people actually believed that they could break their thumb if the bike kicked back while thumbing the starter button.
Some of the greatest motorcycle yarns ever told center around people wrapping a rope or a blanket around their handle bar while being drug by a car to get up enough speed to pop the clutch and get the bike started. One cannot imagine the hilarity of the stories, the unforeseen mishaps, and the injuries unless you lived it.
Simple things like a foot slipping off a (usually oily) kick starter pedal may be more responsible than many imagine for the later need for, and development of, artificial knee joints.
Some advice, practice "bump starting" your bike with a friend or two before it becomes your last alternative to parking your bike and hitch hiking for help. But I guess most riders today wouldn't leave their driveway without a cellphone, so forget the above. You can always call for help, provided there is a a cell tower in range.
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Edited by - gymnast on 10/28/2009 6:01 PM |
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greywolf
Senior Member
476 Posts
[Mentor]
Evanston, IL
USA
Suzuki
DL650AK7
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 7:35 PM
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| When I had five bikes at once back in the late 1970's, one was kick only, one was electric only, two were kick or electric and one had a kick starter under the seat to be taken out and attached in emergencies. Every kick starter in the group got a lot of use. Riding in city traffic with only one bike out of five getting riding time wouldn't keep the batteries up and the XS1100E with the emergency starter burned out most of its diodes on a Colorado trip. Kick starting an 1100 with a short emergency shaft was not much fun. |
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Razzoo
Junior Member
26 Posts
Phenix City, Al
USA
Triumph
Sprint ST
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Posted - 11/01/2009 : 8:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by vivid dadas
I don't want to get busted for thread drift.
That wasn't what I meant at all. I quickly discovered that coast starting a motorcycle with a dead battery is not like coast starting a car with a dead battery.
In a car, you push in the clutch, get the car rolling, and "pop" the clutch. It usually starts.
On a cold motorcycle, at least in my experience, it won't coast in gear with the clutch in, it also has to be in neutral. My cold motorcycles, (my only experience is my 250 Ninja and my 650 V-Strom,) will not roll very well in gear with the clutch lever pulled in. You first have to get it rolling in neutral, then kick it in a gear, (probably not 1st,)then pop the clutch then it might start. This assumes you have the key in and turned on.
The one time I tried to push start my current bike things did not go so well. (btw I have push started previous bikes successfully). I had a bit of a hill and got the bike going, and put it in gear and dumped the clutch. The back wheel just locked up and put a streak of rubber on the asphalt. Since then I have seen others on the Sprint forum say they had the same experiance. Next time I will go for a jump start.
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bachman1961
Advanced Member
952 Posts
[Mentor]
colorado springs, co
USA
Honda
CB750 NightHawk
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 3:04 AM
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Years ago and new to Colorado, I discovered how lazy and cheap I was by realizing that my dead battery in my VW wasn't a problem. We lived in a hilly part of town and I acclimated myself to remembering to park on the high sides of lots, driveways, streets and customer locations. The hilly terrain and opportunity to save cash was quite a novelty since we were flatlanders from Michigan. This went on for months until my wife decided it embarrassed her too much to see me doing this. (I was the only driver of that thing).
Shortly after I got the Honda bike, I realized it's battery was on the fringe. The first few times I roll started it, I knew pretty quick that I was in no shape to be doing it all summer long.
Somehow, that VW weighs less than the Honda I guess ... but the Honda does pop-start when you get a head of steam going on the flats.
I'm still cheap and lazy, live on a different hill and the VW now has 183,000 miles. I guess even if you roll start it, the odometer still works.
~brian
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Night Train
Moderator
942 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
Softail and Touring
Peer Review:
1
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 5:30 AM
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Greywolf and Gymnast, thanks for the trip down memory lane. Boy did your posts bring back a flood of memories from the "tickle, choke, crank", to the 1100 Wings emergency kick start. Most of my close riding buddies are what could be best described as the "over the hill gang" or as our wives refer to us, the "wrecked crew". I can remember one morning not too long ago arriving early for our meet before a run and watching each of the boys as they pulled in and silently wondering to myself, if we didn't have our electric starters just how many of us would be riding today?
The last time we push started a bike was early in the riding season last year when Blackie's Vulcan decided it wouldn't start when we were leaving our first stop of the day about 80 miles from home.
To properly picture this scenario I must tell you a little about the three of us who were party to this exercise. Blackie is the oldest being in his mid sixties and is the survivor of three coal mine cave ins. The last of which injured him so badly he never stepped foot in the mines again. This particular day he was wearing both leg braces and his back brace but was feeling pretty fit considering. Now he is not a tall man, probably 5 foot almost 2 inches and medium frame with thick grey hair. Clint is the youngest, in his 40's and ex-army. He was involved in a serious transport truck accident during the first Gulf War and has had numerous back operations and on this particular day he was in a fair amount of pain. Enough to render him the worst case scenario of the three. Now Clint is six foot almost 2 inches, 300 lbs., with a solid black mane of hair and full beard. Then you have me, who is slight build, 6 feet tall, greying hair and beard, pushing 60, with an abundance of metal plates, pins, and screws holding me together with a pronounced limp in the left leg. Remnants of the surgeries I received as the result of a fairly serious car accident back in 97. On that day, I was feeling pretty good by my normal standards.
Since Clint was in the worse shape of the three of us, we put him on the bike while Blackie and I pushed. It seemed quite normal for us, but we were told by a couple bystanders later that we strongly resembled the Terminator being pushed by Mutt and Jeff.
Well we got the bike up to speed, or so we thought, but it was probably about 5mph which was about as fast as either Blackie or I could run, we holler out to Clint, "let er rip". He popped the clutch in second gear and the back wheel locked up like he had hit the brakes. Our forward momentum brought Blackie and I both to our knees on the pavement.
Luckily some young bucks riding sport bikes pulled in and quickly came to our aid. We put Blackie on the bike and they pushed him and lo and behold that Vulcan fired up as nice as you please.
The rest of the day went without incident and when we came home the first thing we did was resurrect a set of motorcycle jump cables I had on the wall in the garage and I keep them in my saddle bag. We have also installed battery tenders and the ones we bought have a connection that plugs into the tender connector from the battery and has two clips on the end to allow jump starting without removing the seat.
I guess we all reach the point in our lives sometime that the requirement for kick starting or perpetual jump starting would seriously retard our riding future. |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
527 Posts
[Mentor]
Georgetown, Delaware
USA
BMW
R1200RT/ R1200C
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 6:32 AM
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quote:
but we were told by a couple bystanders later that we strongly resembled the Terminator being pushed by Mutt and Jeff.
You have just got to give some warning before you post something like that, now I have to clean the coffee from my keyboard. |
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scottrnelson
Advanced Member
4748 Posts
[Mentor]
Pleasanton, CA
USA
Ducati
ST2, 888, + XR650L
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 7:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Night Train
The rest of the day went without incident and when we came home the first thing we did was resurrect a set of motorcycle jump cables I had on the wall in the garage and I keep them in my saddle bag. We have also installed battery tenders and the ones we bought have a connection that plugs into the tender connector from the battery and has two clips on the end to allow jump starting without removing the seat.
I suggest that you try that reverse Battery Tender connection close to home the first time. If you're flowing enough power to start a dead bike you'll instantly blow the fuse that is normally between the connector and the battery.
I had planned to do a similar thing with my bike, but realized that it was unlikely to work when needed. Jumper cables work well, though. |
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Night Train
Moderator
942 Posts
[Mentor]
Sydney, Nova Scotia
Canada
Harley-Davidson
Softail and Touring
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Posted - 11/02/2009 : 10:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by scottrnelson
quote:
Originally posted by Night Train
The rest of the day went without incident and when we came home the first thing we did was resurrect a set of motorcycle jump cables I had on the wall in the garage and I keep them in my saddle bag. We have also installed battery tenders and the ones we bought have a connection that plugs into the tender connector from the battery and has two clips on the end to allow jump starting without removing the seat.
I suggest that you try that reverse Battery Tender connection close to home the first time. If you're flowing enough power to start a dead bike you'll instantly blow the fuse that is normally between the connector and the battery.
I had planned to do a similar thing with my bike, but realized that it was unlikely to work when needed. Jumper cables work well, though.
Thanks Scott, that's something I hadn't thought about. Good Point. Think I'll stick with the jumper cables. |
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tmonroe
Advanced Member
691 Posts
[Mentor]
Seattle, WA
USA
Kawasaki
ZX-10R
Peer Review:
1
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Posted - 11/03/2009 : 12:38 PM
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Although I absolutely agree that motorcyclists should know how to bump start, or use jumper cables to start a motorcycle in an emergency, I think there is another issue to consider - namely the general health of the charging system.
The root problem here is usually a lack of proper motorcycle maintenance. First off, let me start with a few assertions. Please, let me know if I'm wrong somewhere here:
1. Motorcycle batteries, like car batteries are not designed for "Deep cycle" use (most of them anyway). What this means is that every time you discharge a motorcycle battery, you are shortening its service life. Another way to express this would be to say that keeping the battery full charged will give you the longest possible service life.
2. In my experience, motorcycle batteries are generally more expensive than car batteries.
3. Many motorcycles are not driven daily. In some parts of the country, motorcycles must be put away for months at a time. Even where the weather is normally good, many motorcyclists simply don't ride when it rains, or when the temperatures fall.
4. All batteries will self-discharge over a period of time, even if they are not connected to anything.
5. Some failure modes of batteries (like a shorted cell, or deep discharge) can be harmful to the charging system, or starter on the bike.
It seems to me like we have a sort of collective myopia when it comes to dealing with motorcycle batteries. The proper way to maintain a motorcycle battery is to connect it to some kind of "smart" charger every time the motorcycle is parked at home. The reason I say "every time" is that for the most part, I doubt most motorcyclists know for sure when they are going to ride next. Besides, if it becomes a habit to keep the bike on a charger, than if a bike has to be parked for a few weeks (or months) unexpectedly, the rider won't come back to a dead battery.
Having a bike with an "emergency" kick starter alongside of a battery is a poor design in my opinion. It is encouraging the owner to not take provisions to prevent the battery from discharging, because if the battery is dead, the owner can simply kick start the bike and it will come to life.
I haven't seen anybody else make this connection, but in my experience (cars and bikes), a battery failure often precedes or accompanies a failure elsewhere in the charging system. I think this makes sense if either of the following happen:
The battery has a shorted cell. This reduces the output voltage of the battery. In my experience, sometimes a battery with one shorted cell is still strong enough to crank the starter (although slower than normal). Once the vehicle is started, the charging system will then attempt to overcharge the remaining cells, and will operate at full power output (continuously) in a futile attempt to bring the battery voltage up to normal. I would think this would reduce alternator/generator life.
The battery is deeply discharged. Again, the charging system will attempt to restore battery voltage. This will cause it to run with excessive load for an extended period of time while the battery is recharged.
Aside from the charging system, starter motors should fail sooner if they are cranked excessively, or if they are frequently cranked with reduced power - both of which are likely if the battery is not fully charged and healthy.
I think part of the problem is that we treat motorcycle batteries like we treat car batteries. The problem is that we don't typically park cars for extended periods of time like we do bikes (although if you leave a car parked for several months, its not uncommon to come back to a dead battery), and that in general, I think cars have more robust charging systems.
Manufacturers don't really help us much either. On some bikes its fairly easy to get to the battery terminals - but on other bikes, you have to remove body panels. On my DRZ, with the Suzuki luggage rack, you have to remove the luggage rack to get to the battery.
After replacing 3 batteries one spring (all 3 batteries were less than 1 year old, and each cost nearly $100), I finally setup fused quick connects on all my bikes, and wired my garage so that when I rolled a bike in, I could easily connect it to my charger (I actually have a battery minder, which is a smart charger and battery desulphator). It would be nice if the manufacturers put quick connects on bikes as stock equipment. Besides keeping the batteries charged, they can also be used for heated gear, or with the right set of connectors, they can be used to do things like charging cell phones.)
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Edited by - tmonroe on 11/03/2009 12:59 PM |
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Stevebr242
New Member
23 Posts
Davis, California
USA
Kawasaki
'99 ZX6E
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Posted - 11/03/2009 : 4:14 PM
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Tmonroe, good post. I wanted to make one more comment, though. The critical part of a maintanence system that is hooked up for long periods of time is that it is designed for that type of use. A normal trickle charger can accellerate the battery's end of life by causing too much transfer at the plates, where a smart charger with a desuphator will (if it works as advertised) stop and even reverse the plating action that can bring end of life. A smart charger is critical for batteries that are hooked up for weeks or months at a time. Keep the cheap trickle charger for overnight charges when a battery gets low.
Another note, on both my 99 ZX6E and my neighbor's 89 BMW K100LT, there are quick connects on the wiring harness that make it easy to charge the battery without taking the bike apart. They may not be obvious on some bikes, since they are just pigtailed out of the harness, vaugely in the neighborhood of the battery, but I bet a lot of bikes have them. |
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tmonroe
Advanced Member
691 Posts
[Mentor]
Seattle, WA
USA
Kawasaki
ZX-10R
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Posted - 11/03/2009 : 6:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stevebr242
Tmonroe, good post. I wanted to make one more comment, though. The critical part of a maintanence system that is hooked up for long periods of time is that it is designed for that type of use. A normal trickle charger can accellerate the battery's end of life by causing too much transfer at the plates, where a smart charger with a desuphator will (if it works as advertised) stop and even reverse the plating action that can bring end of life. A smart charger is critical for batteries that are hooked up for weeks or months at a time. Keep the cheap trickle charger for overnight charges when a battery gets low.
Another note, on both my 99 ZX6E and my neighbor's 89 BMW K100LT, there are quick connects on the wiring harness that make it easy to charge the battery without taking the bike apart. They may not be obvious on some bikes, since they are just pigtailed out of the harness, vaugely in the neighborhood of the battery, but I bet a lot of bikes have them.
Thanks - I'm pretty sure I haven't seen a connector like that on any of my bikes, but its worth a look at the owner's manual - that would sure be a pleasant suprise.
Also, you're right - if it wasn't clear when I said that a battery should be connected to a "smart charger", I meant a charger that will only apply power to keep the battery fully charged, and no more. "Battery Tender" makes chargers like this. Also my "Battery Minder" besides the desulphation feature also reliably offsets the gradual discharge of batteries by periodically checking the voltage of the battery and as needed, applying a maintenance charge.
Again you are absolutely right that overcharging can ruin a battery. As can charging a dead battery too quickly. If you find a bike with a dead battery, your best bet is to connect the battery to a slow trickle charger (Again ideally something that is "smart" that will stop charging when the battery is fully charged), and letting the battery charge over a long period of time.
I'm not even sure how gentle a motorcycles (or car's) charging system is when trying to charge a completely dead battery. My guess is that if the battery is low, whatever the full output of the charging system (minus whatever load comes from the bike) is going to be dumped into the battery. I know for example that the deluxe version of the Battery Minder has a temperature probe to give the device some feedback about how fast the battery is charging, and reduce output if it starts to heat up (if a battery is charged too quickly, the extra power will be emitted as heat) - but I doubt vehicle charging systems are that gentle.
I'm guessing that maybe when a vehicle is moving, there is enough air cooling around the battery that it can tolerate getting charged a little quicker than if the air was not moving. Still, I know lots of people upgrade their charging systems (I believe this is common on the older Goldwings Gl1500's and earlier), when you do something like that in the event of having a dead battery then jump start the bike and let it charge itself, that extra power is going to go into the battery. It seems like you're taking a risk your going to significantly shorten battery life. Considering the fact that a new battery costs about 3x as much as a basic battery tender, it seems to me like a little preventive maintenance is worth it in the long run.
On the flip side, most manufacturers recommend replacing the battery every 2 years. I guess if you're swapping them out that frequently, you're not too worried about abusing them too much... |
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Stevebr242
New Member
23 Posts
Davis, California
USA
Kawasaki
'99 ZX6E
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Posted - 11/03/2009 : 7:27 PM
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Tmonroe, the charging systems on cars and bikes should be pretty gentle, and possibly ideal, for recharging a dead batt. The regulator will prevent any astronomical spikes, and the current will come down quickly as the voltage pops up. If it is an old, tired battery, then the current will drop even more, even faster, due to high voltage (assuming "normal" cell failure). I once had a regulator go bad on a Toyota and the battery was charged at 20+ amps every time I drove. That cooked it pretty quick, along with a lot of other stuff.
The point I was trying to make about overcharge ruining a battery had to do with a bunch of experiments we did when I worked for GM as an EV battery engineer. We found that the batteries had the same life, more or less, if they were "gently" cycled with regularity or if they were maintained with a smart charging alg on a shelf. If they were trickle charged, though (a constant overcharge of under 1A, with heat dissipating the extra energy) the life was greatly shortened. If you have a cheap trickle charger tending your battery, it would be good to put it on a timer and let it do its thing for an hour or two a day (depending on what current it is rated at) so that it is being topped up regularly, instead of constantly overcharged.
Still, the smart minder with desulfation should beat all other options, other than riding the thing every week. Bikes like being ridden. The bike I just bought spent many of its 10 years parked and undermaintained, and it really didn't like that...... battery, carbs, brakes, gas lines, gas shutoff valve...... looks good though. |
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tmonroe
Advanced Member
691 Posts
[Mentor]
Seattle, WA
USA
Kawasaki
ZX-10R
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Posted - 11/03/2009 : 8:53 PM
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Thanks Steve - this definetely one of the reasons that I like this forum - I appreciate your insight and relevant experience with batteries and charging rates. I think my gut instinct was that some level of discharge would not be a problem, but who's to say how much is okay and how much is a problem.
Still, for no particularly compelling reason, I still think its better to try to recover a dead battery through slow (and "smart") trickle charger than by riding (given the choice). For one thing, you're taking a bike out to ride with a known fault that will complicate restarting it if the bike dies. Also, it seems like if it is truly doing a "gentle" charge that its going to take a long time to completely charge (maybe as much as 8 hours of riding at speed?). My gut instinct tells me that its probably better to fully charge the battery than to partially charge, and then put away for a while to wait for the next ride.
Finally, In a perfect world, I think given the choice of making the charging system of the bike work harder for a while, or making a $29.99 battery charger run overnight, I'd rather put the load on the battery charger.
Again, its probably not THAT big of a deal, but I've known several riders who have had charging system problems, and I've always suspected that it might be a case of cumulative abuse that nobody was looking for. In my opinion, if you don't ride for any length of time, you really should be taking steps to keep the battery up, rather than trying to figure out how to compression start or jump start the bike. |
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