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Born1928
 New Member
17 Posts
Bastrop, TX
USA
Honda
1989 GB500
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 Posted - 11/05/2009 : 10:51 AM
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My friend, who is a very experienced rider and wears ATGATT, was involved in an accident recently that makes me wonder how often has been replicated. While riding his bike to work in early morning rush hour traffic, he was exiting a side street onto a three lane frontage road bordering a freeway. A pickup truck was in the outside lane and signaled a right turn onto the side street my friend was about to exit. Using the pickup truck as a "cover" my friend made his right turn onto the outside frontage road lane. Seemingly from out of nowhere an SUV, which had turned onto the frontage road about a quarter mile back, swept accross the three lanes, dodging the pickup truck and plowed into the motorcycle, not from behind but glancing off the right door. The bike slammed down, and my friend sustained several debilitating injuries including cracked ribs and sternum and a damaged lung. He later stated that the driver stopped her car, rushed to his side and exclaimed, "Oh my God, my husband was killed in a motorcycle accident." Rush hour traffic in this city like elsewhere features frantic drivers who have one-track minds and accident avoidance is not it. My question is how many of us have used the same tactic as my friend, that is using a right turning vehicle as a cover to enter traffic from a side street. I know I have numerous times. So who is at fault? I suggest that it is both parties involved in such an accident I described. But the police would no doubt ticket the motorcycle rider for failure to yield right of way. Incidentally, my friend is healing nicely and expects to be back riding full time shortly. Norb Simon, Bastrop TX
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James R. Davis
Administrator
14193 Posts
[Mentor]
Houston, TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing 1500
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 11:10 AM
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The question "who was at fault" demonstrates a curious mindset existent almost everywhere.
It is so rare that a single participant is 'at fault' in every case I have worked that the attorneys have always strived with vigor to demonstrate 'Contributory negligence' - meaning, what percentage of the fault the other side of the case was responsible for - instead of who was at fault.
In every jurisdiction in which I have testified the law makes it clear that 50% is 'magic' in that if either side can be shown to have contributed at least 50% of the negligence, the other side is not held liable.
In any event, the motorcyclist did enter a lane of traffic that was not clear (i.e., 'safe'), and the woman did the same thing!
Any percentage other than 50% is used to help the jury determine the amount of financial responsibility the 'loser' of the case is to pay.
That's what juries are for. |
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midlife_crisis
Starting Member
8 Posts
Mineral Springs, NC
USA
Yamaha
YZF600R
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 12:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Born1928
...A pickup truck was in the outside lane and signaled a right turn onto the side street my friend was about to exit. Using the pickup truck as a "cover" my friend made his right turn onto the outside frontage road lane. Seemingly from out of nowhere an SUV, which had turned onto the frontage road about a quarter mile back, swept accross the three lanes, dodging the pickup truck and plowed into the motorcycle...
My question is how many of us have used the same tactic as my friend, that is using a right turning vehicle as a cover to enter traffic from a side street.
Hmmmm...actually, I wouldn't use "a right turning vehicle as a cover" in cases like that, because doing so creates two visibility problems:
- Anybody behind the right-turner (even in a different lane) may not have good visibility of me
- I don't have good visibility of the road behind the right-turner
In your friend's case, it sounds as if the cager was guilty of some inattentiveness and probably of changing lanes too quickly, but his action of entering the lane "hidden" by the right-turning pickup truck made her even less likely to see him.
I understand James' point about "fault", though...it seems that both vehicle operators had some fault.
Meanwhile, glad to hear your friend is recovering and plans to continue riding.:) |
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bzippi
Standard Member
103 Posts
Rossville, Indiana
USA
Yamaha
V-Star 650
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 12:54 PM
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I don't think I've ever used a right-turning vehicle as cover. In this case, the vehicle that provides cover also limits your ability to see potential hazards.
As for fault ... I don't think about that at all when riding my motorcycle. My thought process is more along the lines of "if something goes wrong here, who is most likely to get a ride to the hospital." In most cases, that's going to be the motorcycle rider. |
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scottrnelson
Advanced Member
4748 Posts
[Mentor]
Pleasanton, CA
USA
Ducati
ST2, 888, + XR650L
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 1:37 PM
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Whenever I leave work I have to make a right turn onto a divided road with three lanes each way and a 40 mph speed limit. My only rule when turning onto that road is that there can't be any traffic that could possibly get next to me before I'm up to speed on the road. That means that even if there is a car coming that is two lanes over I won't pull out until they have passed.
I'm unwilling to give anyone the opportunity to make a dumb move and get into my space. AND I have to check to the right to be sure there isn't someone about to pull out of a driveway further along the road right when I get there.
I'm unwilling to give the other person a chance be more than 50% at fault. |
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tmonroe
Advanced Member
691 Posts
[Mentor]
Seattle, WA
USA
Kawasaki
ZX-10R
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 1:38 PM
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As others have stated, the right-turner does block the lane, but it also blocks your visibility and your ability to see.
On the flip side, I have also seen more than a few motorcyclists who when following a vehicle that is turning off will proceed to pass the vehicle as soon as they have enough room to squeeze by.
The only way you can "know" for sure that there is no vehicle in a location is to phyisically take a good look in that location.
There is one part of the story that doesn't quite make a lot of sense though. You said that the driver entered the roadway a quarter mile away, and then at the last minute came over 3 lanes - how do they know that happened? Did the person admit to doing that? Or did someone witness the crash? If the rider saw the SUV come over 3 lanes, it seems like they possibly could have done something to avoid the crash - It should take enough time to traverse 3 lanes that the crash could have been avoided... Probably would take an exceptional level of awareness, but I speed up or slow down constantly when I even get an inkling that someone might come over into my lane - and every once in a while, it seems like I've avoided a crash by doing just that.
In any case, it really sounds like maybe the driver of the SUV was also using the pickup truck as "cover". Unfortunately it sounds like both your friend, and the driver of the SUV were at least partially at fault. Hopefully others will benefit from the telling of the story though - thanks! |
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BadMom
 Standard Member
107 Posts
Beaverton, OR
USA
Yamaha
V-Star 1100
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 2:07 PM
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Another problem with using any vehicle as "cover" is that you can't depend on that driver to actually follow through and make the turn.
My experience has been that just because they have their turn signal on, doesn't mean they intend to turn. I've followed cars and trucks for miles with the blinker on ....each blink says...dumb guy, dumb guy, dumb guy.. |
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hvacman
Junior Member
68 Posts
Zebulon, NC
USA
Victory
v92cse
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 3:04 PM
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| I never use any vehicle as cover.In fact, If I am making a right hand turn onto a divided 4 lane rode (2 each way) if there is a vehicle coming down the street in the outside lane I will wait until it has passed me, I have seen cars make a quick jaunt to the right just before my intersection for no apparent reason. Then a 1/2mil down the rode change back to the left lane. I also never and I repeat never believe a turn signal, You pull out in front of someone with the turn signal on and they keep going straight and hit you, its your fault and possibly your death. Oh I am describing all of this while driving my F250 service truck. |
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Razzoo
Junior Member
26 Posts
Phenix City, Al
USA
Triumph
Sprint ST
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 3:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BadMom
I've followed cars and trucks for miles with the blinker on ....each blink says...dumb guy, dumb guy, dumb guy..
As someone with bike that does not have self-canceling turn signals, I from time to time resemble that remark. One of the things I plan to do is install a signal minder or something similar.
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D R
Advanced Member
611 Posts
[Mentor]
Northern, Virginia
USA
BMW
R1200RT
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 4:11 PM
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When turning right onto a multi-lane road, I'm concerned not only with traffic in the right lane, but also with what the traffic in the other lanes (center, left, etc, depending on the number of lanes)are also doing. I'm mindful of the fact that any of the vehicles in the other lanes can suddenly change lanes to the right lane and into the spot where I'm entering.
If a vehicle in the right lane is turning in to the road (parking lot) I'm exiting, and it blocks my view of any of the other lanes, I will wait until I have a greater view on what is coming down the road.
As such I would not have used the pick up truck as cover |
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haithabu
Junior Member
86 Posts
Canmore, Alberta
Canada
Honda
Varadero
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 4:29 PM
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The consensus on this thread seems to be leaning toward the idea that using another vehicle to screen a move is inherently dangerous. However in my experience it is a very useful urban driving/riding technique. In an ideal world you would wait until the roadway is well clear, but in the city you don't always have that option. Especially on a busy feeder road. Using someone else for cover is the next best thing.
I've never had problems using it. It just has to be done with due care, like anything else.
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Born1928
New Member
17 Posts
Bastrop, TX
USA
Honda
1989 GB500
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 6:20 PM
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| Thanks Haithabu for backing me as regards to using cover such as I described. As stated in my initial post I am an 81 OF with extensive/intensive motorcycle and scooter riding experience. I back that up with over 25 years of flying fighter type aircraft in the USAF. The Good Lord provided me with great eyesight and reflexes that have made both flying and riding an enjoyable experience. When I use a right turning vehicle as cover to make my right turn onto a busy street, I don't throw caution to the winds. I believe I evaluate all the factors mentioned above including traffic that may be partially hidden behind the right turning vehicle. When I do make my right turn I don't dawdle, I use the bikes great acceleration capacity to match the speed of the traffic flow. On the other hand when driving my Buick Belchfire, my wife accuses me of accelerating too slow when entering traffic from a side street. Perhaps she is right. Surrounded with metal in the cage I may have a false feeling of security and do risk being rear-ended. |
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WSMeders
Junior Member
25 Posts
OH, DC
USA
Yamaha
FZR600
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 8:48 PM
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A thought that comes to my mind often in this forum is this: There are those that ride a motorcycle as an "extracurricular" sport, choosing very specific parameters in which to ride, e.g. weather, traffic, etc. And there are those here that see motorcycling as a means of transport, independent of those above stated conditions. This is not to say that the two are hermetically sealed, nor that one is "better" than the other.
In reading the responses to Born1928's question, I see these two perspectives butting heads. Some recommended to wait for all traffic to clear the desired path, but as haithabu points out, in some urban/high-traffic situations, that is not an option.
In short, I ride on my days off. I dislike traffic and avoid it like the plague, I change my plans if the weather changes it's, and I am always willing to postpone a ride if something isn't right. But I know plenty of folks who depend upon a bike for their daily commute/transport. (I would probably be part of this latter group if I didn't live two miles from my office, and prefer riding a bicycle through downtown DC, rather than drive.)
Those "daily" riders know the risks they are taking as much as they know their limits.
So, as James was first to point out, "who was at fault" is something of a faulty question.
One of my dad's old racing buddies always warned me, whatever the situation, the rider is always partly at fault.
It's a personal choice, but one we all must be conscious of. |
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bachman1961
Advanced Member
952 Posts
[Mentor]
colorado springs, co
USA
Honda
CB750 NightHawk
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Posted - 11/06/2009 : 4:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BadMom
Another problem with using any vehicle as "cover" is that you can't depend on that driver to actually follow through and make the turn.
My experience has been that just because they have their turn signal on, doesn't mean they intend to turn.
Good point!
I'll add to that;
In my experience, the vehicle will often slow down making it look certain they will turn and at the last minute, continue travel w/o turning.
They may not be familiar with the area and streets or be able to see to read the street signs well. The more they slow, the more aggravated a following motorist might be and they will often scream by and cut in ... right where you would be if entering that lane !!
~brian |
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SkootchNC
Senior Member
326 Posts
[Mentor]
raleigh, north carolina
USA
Harley-Davidson
road glide
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Posted - 11/06/2009 : 6:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Born1928
Seemingly from out of nowhere an SUV, which had turned onto the frontage road about a quarter mile back, swept accross the three lanes, dodging the pickup truck and plowed into the motorcycle, not from behind but glancing off the right door.
My question is how many of us have used the same tactic as my friend, that is using a right turning vehicle as a cover to enter traffic from a side street. I know I have numerous times.
So who is at fault?
the police would no doubt ticket the motorcycle rider for failure to yield right of way.
"the other vehicle came out of nowhere".... commonly heard at any two vehicle wreck. this sounds so much better than the more likely "I didn't see the other vehicle" The former implying, the other vehicle was speeding, while the latter implies careless operation, by the reporter.
Here in the Raleigh NC area, turn signals seem to be considered an option, and there is no way to tell if a vehicle will turn ot not. It's fairly common for a car to turn left from the far right lane with no warning, and vice versa.
In the states I've been licensed to drive in, it is the responsibility of the merging driver to enter safely into traffic.
Right of way violations often have deadly consequences for motorcycles (the dreaded left-turner).
Even the best trained, and highly skilled people, screw up. I'm glad to hear your friend will mend, and is going to remain a rider.
regards
Frank |
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House_of_Dexter
Standard Member
156 Posts
Richardson, Tx
USA
Kawasaki
2007 Ex-500
Peer Review:
Blocked
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Posted - 11/06/2009 : 10:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bachman1961
Good point!
I'll add to that;
In my experience, the vehicle will often slow down making it look certain they will turn and at the last minute, continue travel w/o turning.
They may not be familiar with the area and streets or be able to see to read the street signs well. The more they slow, the more aggravated a following motorist might be and they will often scream by and cut in ... right where you would be if entering that lane !!
~brian
Or...they stop in mid turn for no apparent reason...had someone do that the other day...luckily I was going slow enough and enough distance between us, I did not rear end them. The corner was like concrete you find in buildings, which made a very scary moment as I came to a stop. |
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