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dhalen32
 Moderator
547 Posts
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Omaha, NE
USA
Yamaha
FJR 1300
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 Posted - 12/12/2008 : 2:35 PM
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DataDan:
I was told by my Chief Instructor during my Instructor Preparation Course that Dr. Hurt and his research team actually rushed out to accident scenes and compiled their own data rather than relying on police reports. I don't know if that was an urban legend repeated to me or not.
Dave |
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Axiom2000
Moderator
527 Posts
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Georgetown, Delaware
USA
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Posted - 12/12/2008 : 3:03 PM
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This is my understanding of how the research was conducted also.
"Mr. Hurt, with a team of investigators, all motorcyclists themselves,[2] examined every nearby motorcycle accident scene, day or night, during a twenty four month period collecting information on over 900 accidents, interviewing 2,310 passing motorcyclists, and studying 3,600 police reports from the area of each accident.[2]
The study took place in the entire Los Angeles basin, including nearby canyons and up to the Angeles Crest thereby including urban as well as rural conditions, e.g., incidents of motorcycles striking animals.[2]
Each accident was studied individually with approximately 1,000 data elements[2] and included taking photos, examining wreckage, measuring skid marks, and interviewing survivors. The investigators revisited each wreck site at the same time on the same day of the week that the accident had occurred along with the same weather conditions to measure traffic and interview motorcyclists who successfully negotiated the same circumstances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurt_Report
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tmonroe
Advanced Member
691 Posts
[Mentor]
Seattle, WA
USA
Kawasaki
ZX-10R
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Posted - 12/12/2008 : 3:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dhalen32
DataDan:
I was told by my Chief Instructor during my Instructor Preparation Course that Dr. Hurt and his research team actually rushed out to accident scenes and compiled their own data rather than relying on police reports. I don't know if that was an urban legend repeated to me or not.
Dave
Dr. Hurt: Hold on sir, I'm a doctor (pulls out measuring tape)
Injured Biker: Oh great - hey, I think I have a broken leg, and some road rash where my jacket ripped.
Dr. Hurt: That looks pretty serious - how far did you slide?
Injured Biker: I'm not sure.
Dr Hurt: (takes a few more measurements, and writes some notes on a clipboard). Okay, Thanks - I've got what I needed (walks away)
Injured Biker: Excuse me, I'm bleeding here... |
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DataDan
Junior Member
96 Posts
[Mentor]
Central Coast, CA
USA
Honda
Peer Review:
Blocked
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Posted - 12/12/2008 : 3:18 PM
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quote:
Gymnast wrote: Data Dan, you make some good points and shine some light on part of the Hurt study methodology. I will ask you the same question about the MSF-NHTSA study that I asked earlier. What are the research questions etc?
I have no connection to the OK motorcycle crash study or any other organization or project. AFAIK, there is no published overview of the project. I've Googled for it occasionally but never found anything. That said, it's being done by the Transportation Center at Oklahoma State University, a reputable academic institution.
The study is being funded in part by the industry, but private funding was part of the deal all along. The legislation that authorized $2.1M required matching funds from private sources. Then the guy who got the project said $4.2M was chump change, and that he was going to need $8M. MSF committed to more, but I don't know where the whole funding thing stands at the moment.
I would expect the people at Oklahoma State to be no less professional in their approach than Hurt. Here's "1.1 Objectives", from Hurt's 1981 report (hand-typed--any errors are mine):
Motorcycle accidents are a very special and severe provblem. The fatalities due to motorcycle accidents are approaching five thousand per year [they exceeded that in 1980, which wouldn't have been known at the time the report was written], and have the prospect of further increase unless effective countermeasures are instituted. At present time motorcycle accidents account for apporximately ten percent of the total traffic accident fatalities, but the motorcycle is only one to two percent of the vehicle population on the street in traffic.
The objectives of this research were to conduct a detailed investigation and analysis of a large number of motorcycle accidents with a highly specialized multidisciplinary research team. in this way, complete engineering and medical information could be collected and all of the accident events coudl be resonstructed to determine accident and injury causes. this scientific, multidisciplary approach could provide much more exact and complete information than was avaialable from police traffic accident reports.
Three specific areas were set as objectives in this research:
1. The causes of motorcycle accidents an injuries need to be determined accurately so that all contributions of the motorcycle rider, car driver, roadway features, and motorcycle design are defined.
2. The effectiveness of safety helmets and other protective equipment must be determined because the motorcycle rider has no crash protection unless it is being worn on the body.
3. Countermeasures must be determined which will prevent motorcycle accidents and reduce injuries. Most accidents are preventable, and motorcycle accidents are unique and different but preventable if the causes and cures are known. The purpose of this research was to determine exactly those causes and cures.
MAIDS, a similar study done in Europe can be found at http://www.maids-study.eu/. The report describes the research objectives and methodology.
quote:
Lastly, I have seen your posts regarding motorcycle crash data on various websites and forums and think that you are an asset to the motorcycle community and respect your highly knowledgeable contributions.
Thank you. The 2007 data is now available, and I'm working on updates as time permits. |
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DataDan
Junior Member
96 Posts
[Mentor]
Central Coast, CA
USA
Honda
Peer Review:
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Posted - 12/12/2008 : 3:40 PM
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I didn't mean to imply in my first post that the 3600 police reports were Hurt's only source of data. As aidanspa wrote, the main source was 900 on-scene, in-depth crash investigations conducted by researchers who were also motorcyclists.
Section 1.2 "Methodology" of the report is longer than the "Objectives" I just typed in, and the Wikipedia entry posted above gets it right. But here's an additional bit about the team:
A specialized research team was formed with engineers, psychologists, medical doctors, and data processing specialists. All members of this research team were required to have motorcycle riding experience so that they could appreciate and understand all hazards pecuiliar to the motorcycle and its accident problems. This research team underwent six months of special trining to achieve a high capability in reconstructing motorcycle accidents, examining accident helmets, evaluating injuried, interviewing witnesses, etc.
So it's obviously not a trivial undertaking. And, assuming the OK team is similarly constituted, I doubt that they could be co-opted to shill for MSF or anyone else. |
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 12/14/2008 : 11:20 AM
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DataDan. Thanks for the update and your insights. Hugh H Hurt's background in aviation safety and automotive safety (his bachelors and Masters decrees were in Aero Engineering) provided an outstanding and unique background for the motorcycle safety research that he was to undertake. The fact that he was a rider of long experience and the members of his team were also riders with unique specialized and/or technical competencies provided additional credibility to the team and the study findings. Hurt now heads up the Head Injury Research Lab in Southern California and is a retired Emeritus Professor of Safety Science at the University of Southern California. Prof. Hurt was very much involved with the study of helmets and prevention of head injury prior to and since completing his landmark study.
The FARS system was one of several data collection systems initiated during the 1970s (another was the "National Emergency Room Electronic Surveillance System") that were intended to collect the data by which a clear picture of trauma data could be obtained, studied, and used as a basis for the development of a wide range of countermeasure options.
I have a few general thoughts that I will pose in the form of questions for you or any others that can contribute.
Why have these systems, despite the expenditure of 10s if not hundreds of millions of dollars, failed to function as originally intended. Why have these data collection assets not been effectively employed in such a way as to develop the research questions to formulate solutions or countermeasures to the motorcycle crash and injury "problem". Are these systems in need of "fine tuning", particularly in light of the advances in data collection and processing capabilities over the past 20 years? Or are the systems with so much potential merely the source of a bureaucratic jobs program that occasionally puts out a blurb to assure the public that "the system is functioning". It has been quite a while since I was on the Mailing List for these systems, so I do not know the answers to these questions. I do know that every day motorcyclists are injured and die and that many currently available countermeasures are not employed in their prevention.
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aidanspa
Advanced Member
1165 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
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Posted - 12/18/2008 : 7:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
Perhaps someone could post a link to the recommendations made in the NAMS study. I was the guy at the Phoenix NAMS meeting that made a pitch (during an open session) for some study and rider training development related to riding with a passenger and braking considerations when carrying a passenger in particular.
I forgot about the NAMS recommendations. Here they are. |
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guzzidave
New Member
15 Posts
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
USA
Moto Guzzi
California III
Peer Review:
1
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Posted - 01/05/2009 : 7:33 AM
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My crystal ball says that after $5 mil and 5 years we will know that, as said before, motorcyclists are killed and injured for exactly the same reasons as during the Hurt report era.
The difference is that now the MSF will loudly proclaim that the answer is more and more BRC. And that the state programs can not keep up with demand and their private and dealer programs can. And it should be mandatory for all licensed riders.
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biocoach
Senior Member
259 Posts
Falls Church, Va
USA
GAS GAS
280
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Posted - 01/05/2009 : 1:46 PM
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| How would a state program not be able to meet demand when a private program could? |
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guzzidave
New Member
15 Posts
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
USA
Moto Guzzi
California III
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Posted - 01/08/2009 : 8:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by biocoach
How would a state program not be able to meet demand when a private program could?
There are a lot more motorcycle dealers in my state than community colleges. And they are not bound by state legislation and conservatism.
But most of all, that is what the MSF wants eventually. |
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dhalen32
Moderator
547 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Yamaha
FJR 1300
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Posted - 01/08/2009 : 12:07 PM
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Dave:
What makes you say that the MSF wants training out of state programs and into motorcyle dealerships?
Dave
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guzzidave
New Member
15 Posts
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
USA
Moto Guzzi
California III
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Posted - 01/08/2009 : 1:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dhalen32
Dave:
What makes you say that the MSF wants training out of state programs and into motorcyle dealerships?
Dave
If you go back to those original Motorcycle Consumer News' articles detailing the nature of the MSF and its goals, you realize that their desire is to have control over every aspect of rider training. And that is from curriculum creation to final delivery to the student. And please do not forget that the MSF is NOT an independent entity but an industry support group. It's primary purpose is to insulate its members (read manufactorers) from liability and create customers. |
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dhalen32
Moderator
547 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Yamaha
FJR 1300
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Posted - 01/08/2009 : 3:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by guzzidave
quote:
Originally posted by dhalen32
Dave:
What makes you say that the MSF wants training out of state programs and into motorcyle dealerships?
Dave
If you go back to those original Motorcycle Consumer News' articles detailing the nature of the MSF and its goals, you realize that their desire is to have control over every aspect of rider training. And that is from curriculum creation to final delivery to the student. And please do not forget that the MSF is NOT an independent entity but an industry support group. It's primary purpose is to insulate its members (read manufactorers) from liability and create customers.
Dave:
I'm also a long time Instructor/RiderCoach/Chief Instructor/RiderCoach Trainer and I too read Wendy and David's MSF bashing articles in MCN a few years ago. While I concede that the MSF clearly wants a single uniform curriculum for basic motorcycle safety training in the United States, I disagree that they want the training out of the control of the individual states and located exclusively in dealerships.
I am well aware that the MSF is funded by the motorcycle manufacturers who sell motorcycles in the United States. I was skeptical about that myself when I first was considering becoming an Instructor. However, I have never seen nor experienced any pressure from anyone at the MSF (past or present) to interfere with any of the motorcycle safety training programs for whom I have worked. I currently live on the border between Nebraska and Iowa and thus work closely with both state administered programs. The MSF has been nothing but supportive of both of our state's programs. I am also very active with the legislature in Nebraska on any motorcycle related statute changes. Except for biennially debating ABATE on the need for our universal helmet law and a recent request to a Senator to allow scooters into our state's BRC classes I have heard nothing from or about the MSF controlling our motorcycle safety training program or any other legislative initiatives or changes.
How are things in the state in which you reside and teach?
Dave
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aidanspa
Advanced Member
1165 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
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Posted - 03/03/2009 : 2:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DataDan
The study is being funded in part by the industry, but private funding was part of the deal all along. The legislation that authorized $2.1M required matching funds from private sources. Then the guy who got the project said $4.2M was chump change, and that he was going to need $8M. MSF committed to more, but I don't know where the whole funding thing stands at the moment.
Well boys & girls, trouble in Motorcycle Crash Causation Study paradise.
According to this very long but well-written February 26, 2009 article in motorcyclenews.com:
quote:
Dr. Samir Ahmed, Professor of Transportation Systems & Engineering at the Oklahoma State University (OSU) Transportation Center told Motorcycle Safety News he is more than just a little frustrated. Dr. Samir Ahmed, Professor of Transportation Systems & Engineering at the Oklahoma State University (OSU) Transportation Center told Motorcycle Safety News he is more than just a little frustrated.
Ahmed is to head the Motorcycle Crash Causation study, a four-year project intended to forensically examine 900-plus motorcycle accidents over a three-four year period. It is only the second of its type in American history, and has been described as badly needed. Its data would be used to help reformulate "countermeasures" and redevelop training and strategies intended to prevent motorcycle accidents.
But the wheels are turning slowly in Oklahoma.
"Everything is frozen. For me to do any work, I have to have an account," Ahmed said of a spending budget needed to do preliminary groundwork while he awaits results of a pilot study begun a couple months ago and due in March or April by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
US Government (NHTSA = taxpayers) has committed $2M, the MSF has pledged $3M, and the AMA has written a check for $100K, for a total off $5.1M. However,
quote:
Ahmed said he has been unable to do anything because he has been denied permission by his administration to start a "finalized work plan."
"These are the things I need to do right away," Ahmed said of formulating research questions, making arrangements with subcontractors and more, "I should have done them a year ago at least."
What's the holdup? With about $5.1 million in commitments, Alan Tree, associate dean for research at OSU's College of Engineers, Architects and Technology, said he does not want to be left accountable for what he foresees as a minimum $9-10 million project. "The challenge is the study is under funded," Tree said, "And that's the crux of the problem."
Sources close to the FHWA have said they have all but begged the university administrators to get started with the $5.1 million it already has, and to have faith that the remaining funds will come. It is said a two-phase plan could commence now; phase one being done with existing money earmarked for the project. Tree, who is the administrator with authority to say the word "go" to research contracts, flatly denied that he could responsibly get started now.
quote:
"There are people who would like to get started with the study. They are not the people who would not be on the hoof for millions of dollars if we cannot complete the study," Tree said. "That would be me."
Tim Buche (MSF President) has the answer for the additional funding. He thinks you and I should pay for it. Taxpayers are already on the hook for $2M...now another $4-5M if Tree's estimate of $9-10M is accurate?
quote:
"Congress definitely needs to step up to fund this," Buche said. While the MSF is doing what it can to create research-based initiatives for motorist awareness and rider training programs and more, he said the need is more than obvious. It is time, he said, that the nation offered more funding to motorcycling, which represents the interests of million of Americans and their families and friends.
In addition to funding issues, a question now exists regarding the study's pilot project begun in December 2008 in Long Beach, CA, at the MSF purpose-built training facility.
quote:
The pilot study has established arrangements with emergency departments in Orange County, and they were initially expected to keep working once the national study started, but that is now in question. Further, OSU did not take advantage of the opportunity to train more investigators for the national study. The original intent had been to send nine investigators who would have learned from the training in the pilot project.
"It appears that we are not going to benefit much from the pilot project," Ahmed said, "These trained investigators are going to go look for something else to do. All the agreements with the agencies in California will just die gradually."
Take a few minutes and read the entire article for a fascinating and infuriating (for me) glimpse at the dark underbelly of the motorcycle industry. This is the stuff of best-selling novels, in my opinion. |
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 03/03/2009 : 3:25 PM
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| To say that Mr Bushe and the MSF-MIC have been disingenuous when it comes to matters of motorcycle safety is understatement. On the other hand this article illustrates a consistent continuation of policies and practices that began over three and one half decades ago when the MIC created the MSF for the purpose of protecting and promoting the sale of motorcycles and establishing a public relations image. That the NHTSA has been an enabler and prop in this charade during the entire time does speak to the character of some of the key players involved. |
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aidanspa
Advanced Member
1165 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
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Posted - 03/03/2009 : 4:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
To say that Mr Bushe and the MSF-MIC have been disingenuous when it comes to matters of motorcycle safety is understatement. On the other hand this article illustrates a consistent continuation of policies and practices that began over three and one half decades ago when the MIC created the MSF for the purpose of protecting and promoting the sale of motorcycles and establishing a public relations image. That the NHTSA has been an enabler and prop in this charade during the entire time does speak to the character of some of the key players involved.
This report, "Millions for Motorcycle Crash Causation Study in Limbo" (PDF 17.43KB) written by Sean Kane, founder of Safety Research and Strategies, Inc provides the interesting origins of this study.
Says Kane in his comments to the motorcyclenews.com article:
quote:
They (MSF & AMA) deliberately lobbied for the motorcycle crash causation study to be sponsored by an agency whose bailiwick is highway maintenance. In concert with Inhofe (Senator, OK), they awarded the study to a transportation center that likewise has no particular expertise in crash causation studies or motorcycles. (This saga, by the way, has even more twists and turns than your article suggests.) Now the entire study is threatened because, if additional funders arent found by August, the original federal dollars will disappear back into the FHWA general fund.
And all of this because motorcyclists dont want to told to wear helmets the simplest, cheapest and possibly the most effective countermeasure to the rocketing fatality rates. The phrase too clever by half comes to mind.
Kane ends his report with a summary:
quote:
So, lets review: Senator Inhofe and motorcycle lobbying groups force a study on an institution that wasnt eager to take it on, insist that it be performed in a certain way to prevent the study from coming to obvious conclusions, such as: protecting your head in a crash is a good thing. This study that was so important to the industry may not ever be conducted.
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Edited by - aidanspa on 03/03/2009 4:10 PM |
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 03/03/2009 : 4:15 PM
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Google, "Motorcycle Industry Council+Senator James Inhofe". Do the math.
Now check your math, Google "Kathy Van Kleeck+Senator James Inhofe"
The sum and substance is that the MIC-MSF does not want riders to be required to wear helmets even if some motorcyclists are going to die as a result. Thirty five or more years ago, the MSF-MIC-AMA were of an opinion that mandatory helmet laws implied that motorcycles "were dangerous" and that the implication might negatively effect sales of the adventurous vehicles that were "fun-fun-fun". Thirty five years ago laws relating to the mandatory use of vehicle restraints and infant and child restraints did not exist in the USA and motorcycle rights groups were vocal in contrasting mandatory motorcycle helmet use laws with the absence of laws requiring seat belt use ( there were no automobile passive restraints or airbags at that time). Times have changed, however the MIC-MSF-AMA, apparently, have not. |
Edited by - gymnast on 03/03/2009 4:40 PM |
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aidanspa
Advanced Member
1165 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
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Posted - 03/03/2009 : 4:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gymnast
Google, "Motorcycle Industry Council+Senator James Imhofe". Do the math.
Excellent. If anybody is wondering how the Federal Highway Administration, an agency that handles road maintenance, was awarded the sponsership of a crash causation study, and why the study was given to OU, an institution whose transportation center has no particular expertise in crash causation studies or motorcycles, and why the AMA wrote a check for $100K for funding, read this AMA press release from October 11, 2006.
quote:
The American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) has announced that Edward Moreland, AMA Vice President for Government Relations, has been named to the newly created Motorcyclist Advisory Council to the Federal Highway Administration.
Who recommended Moreland for the position in this newly created council?
quote:
Moreland was recommended to the Motorcyclist Advisory Council by U.S. Senator James Inhofe (Oklahoma), and by U.S. Representatives Sherwood Boehlert (New York), Peter DeFazio (Oregon), Sam Graves (Missouri) and Thomas Petri (Wisconsin), as well as by Harley-Davidson Motor Company and the AMA. (emphasis mine)
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gymnast
Moderator
2211 Posts
[Mentor]
Meridian, Idaho
USA
Harley-Davidson
Sportster Sport
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Posted - 03/03/2009 : 4:44 PM
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| As I said above in my edited post, check your math. Google Kathy Van Kleeck+Senator James Inhofe. |
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aidanspa
Advanced Member
1165 Posts
[Mentor]
Omaha, NE
USA
Harley-Davidson
Heritage Softail
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Posted - 03/03/2009 : 4:51 PM
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Thanks gymnast.
From the FHWA site regarding the Motorcycle Advisory Council membership:
quote:
Kathy Van Kleeck, Vice President, Government Relations, Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF), will serve as a member of a national safety organization. Ms. Van Kleeck was recommended by Senator James Inhofe.
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